Interview by Pamela Taylor/InfoSud – Florence Hartman’s book, “Peace and Punishment” (*), is an insider’s look at how realpolitik influences the international criminal justice system. The author warns that despite being indicted for genocide, Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic will likely never face justice as a result of the agreement that ended the Bosnian war and allowed the Serbs to take over the UN protected enclave of Srebrenica. The book lists communications between the US, the UK, France and the ICTY (International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia) that document 12 years of obstruction regarding the arrest of the two men. Hartmann, journalist for Le Monde before she joined the ICTY, says del Ponte cannot comment on the book until after she leaves the tribunal on December 31, 2007 but that her former boss has not denied anything in it.

Ms. Hartman, why did you decide to write this book? Was it to answer the questions so many journalists and others have had over the years as to why Karadzic and Mladic remain at large?

In part, but my main reason was to describe the inner workings of the first courts to be established to address the implementation of international humanitarian law and how they can be influenced by national politics. The ICTY and the ICC (International Criminal Court) are not perfect but they have gone a long way to put an end to impunity and this is an effort that must continue.

Then why focus on a case that has been such a clear failure?

This failure is a direct result of the refusal of certain countries to cooperate with the ICTY when it comes to the big fish. NATO only began serious arrests in 1997 and found it was not that difficult. They arrested 30 accused war criminals but never came near Karadzic and Mladic. When I was working for Le Monde, I met both of them several times and we journalists were constantly amazed that Karadzic could walk around so freely.

But the ICTY got a really big fish in Milosevic.

There was also resistance to arresting Milosevic and it might never have happened without (then Serbian Prime Minister Zoran) Djindjic who was of course later assassinated for turning Milosevic over to The Hague. And it didn’t happen until after Carle del Ponte explained to (then US Secretary of State) Colin Powell that people in the Balkans won’t do anything without a push from the international community.

How do you explain this cooperation with regard to Milosevic and not with Karadzic and Mladic?

One word: Srebrenica. The international community knew Milosevic wouldn’t talk about Srebrenica to avoid charges of genocide. But Karadzic and Mladic would certainly blame the massacre of 8,000 Bosnians on the international community by claiming they were given a yellow light to seize the enclave as part of the deal to give Milosevic more territory in exchange for peace. I list in my book precisely the kind of evidence Western governments would give us (ICTY) and which kind they wanted to hide - specifically anything related to Srebrenica.

Are you saying the Western powers are responsible for the Srebrenica massacre?

They did not give the order of course. But they didn’t take any measures to prevent what everyone, diplomats, soldiers and journalists were warning would happen if the Serbs took the enclave. The West decided to sacrifice this territory to get Milosevic’s signature on the Dayton peace accord and stop the suffering in Bosnia. But the price of peace was 8,000 lives. The ICTY has documents showing the US refusal to give access to intercepts of conversations between Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic during this time. Why? One reason might be because they would show the US knew what the Serbs were planning for Srebrenica and did nothing. Even five days after the fall of Srebrenica, no measures were taken to protect civilians. So they (the West) are very afraid that the testimony Karadzic and Mladic might give, whether proven or not, would damage the credibility of the Western powers.

This is a serious accusation you are making, that the West was somehow complicit in the Srebrenica massacre.

I am not accusing anyone. My book lists the evidence, including quotations from high level US, UK and French officials that lead to one conclusion. There was plenty of evidence against Karadzic and Mladic. The ICTY had its own tracking team that gave them [NATO] information about the whereabouts of Karadzic and Mladic on a plate but they always had silly questions like ‘how many windows are there?’ or ‘what about approach roads?’ It was bullshit and they did nothing. If the ICTY mandate is not renewed beyond 2010 what does it mean for the future of international justice? We must fight for independent human rights courts because when countries know that politics can interfere with justice, whether for Yugoslavia or Sudan, we will not be able to bring serial killers to account and end impunity.

* “Peace and Punishment” was published in French (Editions Flammarion) in September 2007 and later in Bosnian but not yet in English